A writer is not a ghostwriter. Is it oral tradition or possession? Is it sound or color? A conversation between Satoyumi and Yuko Tanaka

"I Want to Publish a Book" is a book that shortens the distance to thinking.

Tanaka: Reading "I Want to Publish a Book," I thought that Satoyumi-san is good at raising the reader's spirits.

Satoyumi: Raising spirits?

Tanaka: You can convey enjoyment without using the word "fun." When I finished reading this book, I thought, "I want to write a book!" Even though I've already written many books as a writer (laughs). I felt once again that it's a great job.

Satoyumi: That makes me happy. The feedback I'm happiest to receive about this book is things like "I wanted to publish a book too" or "I wanted to become a writer."

Tanaka: Also, I think this book shortens the distance to "thinking."

Satoyumi: What do you mean by shortening the distance to thinking?

Tanaka: While reading, I had the feeling that Satoyumi-san was coming closer to me. You would bring up themes like "Why publish a book?" or "How do writers write?" and come right up to me, leaving them there saying, "Try thinking about this for a moment." Like a department store concierge.

I haven't had the pleasure of being served by one myself (laughs), but concierges choose and recommend products that suit the person. That's why I think I kept thinking, "What about me?" even after I finished reading.

Satoyumi: Haha, so I leave the theme behind and walk away.

Tanaka: I once wrote a book for a live demonstration salesperson, and I was shown how they do it. In what order and which elements to show so that people become interested in the product. If they doubt, "But do I need this?" at this point, you show this demonstration at that timing. I felt something similar in "I Want to Publish a Book."

Satoyumi: Certainly, when I write a book, I write it with the image of what it would be like if I were talking about this in a lecture. While picturing the faces of the participants, I think, "That person might say, 'Wait, but...' here," or "This person might say, 'I want to write right now!' so I should have them wait a bit." It's unconscious, but I might be talking to the reader in my head.

Tanaka: Interesting! That's why my spirits were lifted while reading, thinking "I want to try it too," and I was motivated.

Satoyumi: Today, I wanted to know how you, Yuko-san, write books. Please tell me all about it.

"To think" or "not to think." The "style" that conveys that person's character.

Satoyumi: (Looking at the books Yuko-san has worked on) Business, education, biology, psychology... when you line them up like this, it's quite a wide range. And all of them are bestsellers! You really are amazing. Are there any books that left a deep impression on you?

Tanaka: It was tough when I worked on "Insects Are Even More Amazing," I spent the whole summer just staring at bugs (laughs). It was a completely unknown world, but it was very interesting.

Satoyumi: Do you have a specialty genre?

Tanaka: I don't have a specialty or non-specialty genre, but lately, I've been writing about "people" a lot. Rather than conveying a method, it's more about letting people get to know the person.

Satoyumi: Writing people, not methods?

Tanaka: Of course, methods are necessary to change the reader's behavior, but first, I want them to like the author.

Koga (Fumitake)-san, the representative of the writer's company 'batons' that I belong to, once told me, 'Tanaka-san, you are better suited to writing people.' He said that the tension of the writing is clearly different between parts where the narrative or story is important and parts where you are just piling up logic.

I have a strong feeling of, 'This person I like is wonderful, aren't they?' I think the penetration rate of the book's content changes depending on whether or not the reader can come to like the author.

Satoyumi: I see. I had never thought of it that way. I understand. So that's why the books you write sell... Wow. I think I'll try to be conscious of that when I write from now on. What specific writing style do you use to 'get people to like the author'?

Tanaka: I am conscious of a writing style that conveys 'that person'.

Satoyumi: Writing style... I still don't really understand what writing style is. How would you translate 'writing style' into English?

Tanaka: If you translate it literally, it's 'style', isn't it?

Satoyumi: I see, 'style', huh.

Tanaka: So, it's not just about whether it's a 'desu-masu' tone or a 'de-aru' tone. First, there's vocabulary. Their personality comes out in their choice of words and the order in which they speak. For example, in 'What a 92-year-old active nursery teacher wants to convey: Parenting that makes parents and children happy,' it would be a bit strange if the author, Shigeko Okawa, explained things logically like a consultant.

Satoyumi: If she's a 92-year-old nursery teacher, she would speak more emotionally, right? Do you decide that while you're writing?

Tanaka: I start by feeling my way through it, and gradually I get a grasp of it. What kind of language do they use? Should I use kanji or hiragana? For Okawa-san, I might think, 'It's not "omoenai kurai" (can't think), it's "omoenu kurai" (cannot think)."

Satoyumi: She probably doesn't say "omoenu" when she's talking, right?

Tanaka: She doesn't. But when I write, I imagine the author and change the words while thinking about how I want the reader to receive them. Because their personality comes out in the choice of words. Also, the way the story unfolds is important. I think, 'If it were this person, they would use these words and speak in this order.' I am also conscious of the author's breathing when I place punctuation marks.

Satoyumi: I see, you match their breathing at 92 years old.

Tanaka: Satoyumi-san, do you change the way you place punctuation marks between your own books and the books you ghostwrite?

Satoyumi: Since I write my own books and essays in my own style, I think there is a lot of punctuation. My writing has a lot of pauses for breath. But when I'm ghostwriting, I consciously reduce the punctuation to try and erase my own color.

Tanaka: After all, everyone has their own rhythm. When I'm ghostwriting, I can't write other manuscripts at the same time. I can't really read books either. Just like how your intonation shifts when you talk to someone with an Osaka accent, the writing style rubs off on me. I carefully select books that I think will be okay to work on (laughs).

Satoyumi: Is the author's writing style something you can grasp right away?

Tanaka: I can't grasp it right away, so I'm constantly revising. I start writing from the 'Introduction,' and the next day I read it again from the 'Introduction' and revise it. That's why it only progresses a little bit at a time. I spend forever thinking about things like the 'omowanai' versus 'omowanu' I mentioned earlier. I wonder if it would be scary if I calculated it by hourly wage. Once I grasp it, I can write it all at once, though.

Satoyumi: I think it takes time because the resolution is high.

Tanaka: Hmm, while I do wish I could write more efficiently, yes, that's right. When I write, I decide on a color.

Satoyumi: A color?

Tanaka: I don't think many people relate to this when I tell them... but you know how there's an aura color you feel for a person when they are talking? It's not that I actually see it, but it's more of an atmosphere or a presence they carry, something vague. I feel that when I write to reproduce that color, the words and rhythm fall into place. If the reader can feel that while reading, I wonder if that means their personality is being conveyed.

Satoyumi: Wow. Color, huh. What color am I?

Tanaka: (Immediately) Yellow! Oh, and it's not because you're wearing yellow clothes right now. I have an image of a bright, clear yellow.

Satoyumi: Then, what about Mr. Okawa, the nursery teacher?

Tanaka: Mr. Okawa is the deep color of a wooden school building, like the cover of a book. I believe that the writing style is what conveys the author's color. I write with the feeling of letting the author seep through.

Writers are not ghostwriters. "Paraphrasing" by dismantling and reconstructing once.

Satoyumi: Members of the seminar I teach often ask me this, but writers don't just write down what they hear, right? They receive the author's words and reconstruct them. It seems everyone struggles with how much paraphrasing is appropriate.

The other day, when you wrote the interview article between Yuko-san and Ririko-san, you paraphrased without hesitation, and I thought that was amazing.

Tanaka: The chat we have within a one-meter radius during an interview is different from speaking to readers through text, so even if you want to say the same thing, the words you use to convey it are different. That's why I never use the transcript as is. Of course, I leave strong words that become key phrases as they are, but the raw statements and the expressions in the text change. Since I want to convey what I received on-site as much as possible, I have the image of extracting only the essence of the core message.

Satoyumi: Extracting only the essence.

Tanaka: Yes. I rewrite the message that the person truly wanted to convey so that it can be understood through the text.

Satoyumi: But then, don't people tell you, "I didn't say that"?

Tanaka: I have never once been told, "I didn't say that." A writer is someone who turns the author's thoughts and philosophy into words that are better understood by the reader, not someone who "writes instead of them."

Satoyumi: Right, not a ghostwriter. A person who writes anew. Is there anything you are conscious of in order to "reconstruct" the text?

Tanaka: When I first became a writer, I used to be pulled in by the tape transcript. But things written that way are "one-meter radius words," so they don't resonate. I realize it when I read it back myself. So, I changed my method to writing without looking at the transcript.

Satoyumi: You don't look at it at all?

Tanaka: I only read through the whole thing at the beginning. Then I leave only the important parts and delete everything else. I input the remaining message, the author's way of thinking, and their personality into my own body, and write from scratch. I think, "If it were this person, they would say it this way." It becomes more interesting that way, and it brings out their individuality.

Satoyumi: That's amazing. You really dismantle it once.

Tanaka: What do you do, Satoyumi-san?

Satoyumi: I always listen to the sound before I write. I let the impression I get from listening to the audio simmer in my body, and then I release the words all at once with that same tension. I look at the transcript, but I never copy and paste. I always type out every single sentence from scratch myself. I value the sensation of hearing the sound more than the text itself. People often say it's like being 'possessed,' but I think it's different from that.

Tanaka: So you're the oral tradition type.

Satoyumi: Exactly. I hear it as sound and convey it as sound. Are you the possession type, Yuko-san?

Tanaka: Hmm, possession... It's not so much that the person descends into me, but rather that I trace their thoughts as I write. It's like I soak myself in that person, imagining how they would think and what they would say if they were in this situation. That's a bit different from possession, isn't it?

Satoyumi: Yeah, it is. We tend to use the word 'possession' loosely, but you're right, this job might not really feel like possession.

The 'writing style' and 'listening style' that highlight 'what I want you to read here'

Tanaka: Satoyumi-san, what do you think about when you are book writing?

Satoyumi: If you looked at what the author wants to convey most through a thermograph, it would surely be glowing red. I write with the feeling that as long as that gets across, it's enough. I think, 'Please, feel this heat!'

That's why I often don't hesitate to discard other stories to highlight a certain one. I want to make sure the reader doesn't stumble on anything other than the part where I think, 'I want you to read at least this part!' I prioritize getting them to that point.

Tanaka: How do you write scenes that you absolutely want to convey?

Satoyumi: First, I project the image in my head. It's like I'm turning what I heard in the interview into a reenactment video, and as I play it in slow motion, I'm frantically writing it down. I feel like, 'It's going to disappear, it's going to disappear!'

Tanaka: By writing the scene, the reader can re-experience it.

Satoyumi: Yes. Recently, I feel like I've become able to do what's called 'cutting' in film, but with text.

Tanaka: Cutting?

Satoyumi: Like switching cameras in a video, I switch the writer's perspective. In the case of 'I want to publish a book,' for example, the story of Mineko-san that I wrote in CHAPTER 3 is like that.

Tanaka: (While flipping through the pages) The scene where you are talking on the phone in front of Tokushima Station, the scene where Mineko-san is walking with a desktop computer, the airplane scene... As you change the perspective, the images play back in my head.

Satoyumi: I think I've become able to write so that the reader can see the intended images in the intended order. When the way you write changes, the interview changes too, doesn't it?

Tanaka: If you want to show the reader an image, you can't write it without asking for details. Instead of asking about their feelings at the time, I ask things like, 'What did you see?' or 'What was there?' When I'm listening to an author's story and I think, 'There's a blank space here,' I make sure to ask persistently.

Satoyumi: Yuko-san, what do you do when you want to make a point stand out?

Tanaka: I value rhythm. I control the reading speed to make the reader pause. Using punctuation or line breaks, or inserting an extremely short sentence, makes the eyes stop visually. Conversely, I might insert a long sentence without any punctuation.

Satoyumi: I love the sentence "Well, listen to this," which is sometimes used in Jiro Asada's essays. I think that's a classic way to make someone stop. It's like saying, "I'm about to tell you an interesting story now."

Tanaka: Wow, that's great. Though writers can't really use that (laughs).

Satoyumi: Also, by intentionally placing something out of place, you can create a gap. It's like placing a single pebble that shouldn't have been in that landscape.

Tanaka: It makes the reader stop and think, "Huh?" It's a technique to ensure the text isn't read with the same rhythm throughout.

Rebuilding with every interview. "Structuring" by arranging in the order the reader wants to read

Tanaka: It's often said that there are writers who can write good interview articles but can't write a whole book. Satoyumi-san, do you think the skills required for a writer differ between web/magazine articles and books?

Satoyumi: I think the biggest difference is whether you can do "structuring." Even if you can write a 2,000-3,000 character piece well, it doesn't mean you can structure 100,000 characters.

Tanaka: Structure is the skeleton, after all. Some book editors say, "A book writer doesn't have to be a good writer, as long as they can make the overall logic work." Because changing the structure is much harder than fixing the prose.

Satoyumi: Yuko-san, how do you build your structure?

Tanaka: The structure at the planning stage often changes, so I rebuild it after every interview. I think, "This story was interesting, so maybe I should add a chapter."

Satoyumi: You build it during the interview? I've never done that.

Tanaka: Since I use that as a basis for the next interview, maybe that's why I have fewer follow-up interviews.

Satoyumi: I see. So that's why my follow-up interviews keep increasing...

Tanaka: When I build a structure, I think about the reader. I think about what kind of flow and content would make someone who picks up this book and flips through it want to take it to the register. For example, in "What a 92-year-old active public health nurse wants to convey: Parenting that makes parents and children happy," I shared a vision in Chapter 1 about what to aim for, provided concrete know-how in Chapter 2, supported it with theory in Chapter 3, addressed worries in Chapter 4, and structured the final chapter as a message to mothers.

Satoyumi: In the last chapter, it says, "There is no better home environment than 'having a good relationship with your spouse,'" but if you were told that at the beginning, some people might close the book.

Tanaka: You'd think, "Why are you telling me that all of a sudden?" It's about what order makes it easier to accept. I actually trust my own eyes as a reader quite a bit. Because I am a truly ordinary person; I'm not incredibly smart, nor am I outstanding in any particular field. I believe I have a commonality that lives up to the name "Yuko Tanaka" (laughs). So, I think that what I find interesting should also be interesting to the reader.

Satoyumi: The other day, a student in my seminar asked, "How should I choose between what I find interesting and what is beneficial to the reader?" It seems some people think those two things are misaligned.

Tanaka: It also depends on your level of expertise in that field. The points that someone who is knowledgeable in that field finds interesting are different from those of someone who knows nothing at all.

Satoyumi: A book writer who isn't too familiar with the field is more likely to represent the reader. That's why I try not to forget who I was before I took on a job, when my antenna wasn't up yet.

Tanaka: When I'm writing a manuscript, I try to be a skeptical reader. I challenge myself by saying, 'Even so...' Especially when the author is an impressive person, you want to say things like, 'You can only do that because you're talented,' or 'That's just your position talking,' right? I try to support the reader by adding episodes that lift their spirits or make them feel like they want to try it themselves, even if they are a bit detached.

Satoyumi: I also constantly ask myself various questions in my head. It's like I'm interviewing myself: 'Is there evidence for this?', 'Can anyone do this?', 'What should people who don't feel motivated do?'

Tanaka: Even in daily life, when I see maxims, I immediately look for exceptions. I think about what kind of explanation I could add to cover those people as well.

Satoyumi: That happens a lot. Maybe that's why I end up like a live demonstrator, thinking, 'I should add this explanation here.'

Tanaka: Writing a book has both the joy of learning about various genres and the joy of changing yourself. I'm completely different from who I was five years ago. I think that's probably because I'm doing this job. That's what's interesting about it.

Satoyumi: Listening to you today, Yuko, I thought that if I could have a book writer like you in charge, I'd want you to handle my book. I'm sure my thoughts would be stirred up in ways I wouldn't notice myself, and my ability to put things into words would improve.

Tanaka: It sounds like you're starting to want to write it yourself, Satoyumi! (laughs)

Satoyumi: Yuko, you once said, 'When I'm involved in a project, I want to give the author at least one souvenir.'

Tanaka: I hope to provide things like new questions or help with putting thoughts into words.

Satoyumi: I thought that if a writer like that could draw out my story and write it, they could broaden my world. It made me realize I need to think as thoroughly as you do in my work. (End)

Photography / Noriyuki Miyama
Text / Kozue Ando

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