[Dialogue #1] Rurihiko Hara x Hiroyuki Horihata (matohu) "What is a Suhamer? Exploring the Philosophy of the Seashore Living in the Modern Age"

To commemorate the publication of "Suhama-ron" (On Suhamas), a talk event was held at Daikanyama T-Site on August 9, 2023. We invited the author, Rurihiko Hara, and Hiroyuki Horihata of the fashion brand
matohu, who was responsible for the cover visuals—both of whom are "Suhamers" (people who love Suhamas)—to talk about the behind-the-scenes story of the book's design and a "completely new way of looking at Japanese culture" that emerges from the perspective of the Suhama. We will be sharing the details of that event in two parts.

■ How I became a Suhamer, a person who loves Suhamas

Hara　There are many things I need to explain first, but I published a book called "Suhama-ron" on June 1st, and I asked Mr. Horihata of matohu to handle the cover image. The reason I asked him is that I have been a huge fan of matohu for a long time; it has been about 11 years since I fell in love with the brand in 2012. My research on Suhamas also started around the same time; I began working on it for my undergraduate thesis, then my master's thesis, and my doctoral dissertation, spending about 10 years on it, and this "Suhama-ron" is based on that doctoral dissertation.

Horihata　You are a die-hard Suhamer!

Hara　(Laughs). Behind that research, I was able to get a lot of power and inspiration by managing to get matohu clothes at every milestone, so even while I was writing, I thought, "I would love to ask Mr. Horihata to do the cover when this becomes a book." So, I asked him during the busy end of last year, and he agreed to take it on. Actually, Mr. Horihata himself knows a lot about Suhamas, and although today's title is "Suhamer"...

Horihata　That is a word I made up on my own (laughs).

Hara　It also sounds a bit like a German word, doesn't it? Mr. Horihata originally studied German philosophy and aimed to be a philosopher. He went as far as studying abroad in Germany and was heading in that direction, but he switched to fashion, which leads us to today. After our first meeting, Mr. Horihata wrote the word "Suhamer" in an email. With the book designer Takuya Yasuda, the editor Yuta Kurahata, myself, and Mr. Horihata, we decided that we had secured four Suhamers (laughs). I think this number will just keep growing from here.

Horihata　Everyone who came today will surely be Suhamers by the time they go home (laughs).

Hara　I don't think you hear the word "Suhama" very often in daily life, but when I previously told Mr. Horihata that I was researching Suhamas, he said, "Oh, Suhamas?" and was very knowledgeable about them. I suspect he might have been a Suhamer before I was (laughs). I only became a Suhamer around 2011.

Horihata　Ah, certainly, I have been a Suhamer for a little longer than that (laughs).

Hara　So, in fact, Mr. Horihata is a senior Suhamer compared to me (laughs). Because of that, I asked him to do the cover this time. Thanks to him, I think we created something truly eye-catching. First, I would like to ask Mr. Horihata how he came to know about Suhamas and how he became interested in them. After all, the matohu logo is a plover, isn't it?

Horihata　That's right. It is written as "matohu," and next to the logo, there is a modern design of a classic plover shape. It is a collection of small dots, which also looks like a flock of plovers, and the reason I created it was that I wanted it to be like a family crest when I designed the brand logo. When you look at plovers in Japanese art, they are almost always paired with a sandy beach. As I looked at many such paintings, I began to think that there must be some deep meaning to this. For example, this is a painting of a snowy beach by Kano Sansetsu.

What catches the eye is, above all, the flock of plovers. Furthermore, the swirling waves below them, the pine tree in the foreground, the straw hut-like structure on the left, and the silver moon shining in the deep navy night sky in the far distance. It is a magnificent painting on a gold screen. Now, everyone, can you tell where the Suhama is depicted here? A Suhama is, in short, a sandy beach. It is a beach where sand carried by the sea or rivers accumulates and changes into various shapes. Since it is the sea, there are high tides and low tides. It is something that is, in a sense, indeterminate and shifting—born, changing shape, and then disappearing. Plovers gently land there. One day, I realized that this image is almost universal, and I wondered, "What is this?" While thinking about it, I researched various things and realized that the Suhama was actually a pure and sacred land where birds land, a clean place. That is one thing, and also, has everyone seen the Suhama family crest? Isn't this cute?

　It has an indescribable charm, and if you added eyes, a mouth, and three whiskers to it, it would look like a character that could appear in a Fujiko F. Fujio manga (laughs). There are many patterns in Japanese family crests, but the Suhama pattern has a mysterious appeal that draws you in. So, I thought, what if I made this into a bag? And I even made a "Suhama bag" (laughs). It is made of original textile and even has plover-shaped metal fittings.

　Like this, I was quite obsessed with Suhamas, but I didn't really understand the details. However, in Mr. Hara's "Suhama-ron," the true value of the Suhama is revealed, and for me, it was an eye-opening experience. It is a book that made me deeply realize that Japanese art, crafts, traditional performing arts, and gardens are all filled with Suhamas. I hope everyone here will learn about that today.

Hara Thank you. This Suhamamon (Suhama crest) is truly unique, isn't it? There is a bean confection called "Suhama" that has this shape, but when people hear the word "Suhama," that is likely the only thing they might barely recognize. I think there is a bit of a leap from these highly stylized family crests and Japanese sweets to the idea that it actually represents the seaside.

Horihat That's true. It is quite simplified, isn't it? Since it is our brand logo, we make a lot of plover items like these pins and earrings, but are there actually other things besides the Suhama and the plover?

Hara While the set of the plover and the Suhama appears slightly in my book, the most common combination is the crane and the Suhama. Since ancient times, the crane and the turtle have been symbols of longevity, so you often see pictures of cranes standing on the Suhama seaside or turtles present. For example, this is a very old piece from Kasuga Taisha Shrine called Silver Crane and Shore Shape (Gin-kaku oyobi isogata), and there are many images where pines grow on a Suhama island made of such curves, with cranes flying above.

Horihat This strange, squiggly feeling—this is truly typical of the Suhama, isn't it?

Hara The curves are truly unique. You reacted to that as well, didn't you, Mr. Horihat?

Horihat Yes. Like this wriggling amoeba (laughs).

Hara This is a diagram I often use, and it also appears at the beginning of "Suhama-ron" (On Suhama). It depicts a scene from "The Tale of the Hollow Tree" (Utsuho Monogatari), the first long novel of the Heian period. While this painting itself is from the Edo period, it is a waka poem that describes a scene where plovers are hopping around on a Suhama-dai (Suhama stand). This is the Suhama-dai used when a man presents a waka poem of courtship to a woman.

Horihat Do you mean he turns the entire Suhama-dai into a love letter?

Hara He attaches the love letter to it and presents it. The Suhama-dai was one of the tools used when presenting waka, so in the old days, people didn't just give the waka; they would create a stage for it and present it as is.

Horihat Wow, isn't that amazing? Attaching something like a diorama to a love letter and handing the whole thing over (laughs).

Hara It's like you can't say no to that (laughs). The waka poem goes, "Searching for the plovers on the shore, I wonder if they will return the letter, as they tread upon the Suhama." There is a legend in ancient China that characters were created by observing the footprints of plovers on the beach. It is slightly related to that; the idea is that there are plover footprints on the Suhama-dai, and those are also the characters of the letter. "Fumi ya kaesu" (treading back/returning the letter) is a pun on the plovers walking on the beach and treading back, and the act of returning the letter (fumi). I imagine they created a miniature with plovers on the seaside and presented it. This painting shows that as well.

Horihat This squiggly-shaped stand is...?

Hara That is the Suhama-dai. These curves are truly characteristic. It must be difficult to cut wood to create such a shape. The legs are not vertical either, but are curved legs called "kesoku." You can clearly see how much they insisted on these curves. So, Mr. Horihat, you became interested in Suhama through your connection with the plover, right?

Horihat That's right. Conversely, why did you become a "Suhamer," Mr. Hara?

Hara Originally, Suhama seemed to be a hidden favorite topic in the graduate seminar of Professor Shinpei Matsuoka, to which I belonged. Whenever Suhama appeared in paintings or the like during the seminar, he would suddenly get excited, saying, "Wait, isn't this a Suhama!?" (laughs).

Horihat Does that mean the first Suhamer was Professor Matsuoka?

Hara That might be true (laughs). Professor Matsuoka had long felt that someone should properly research Suhama. In that context, it was recommended to me as a research topic. At first, I didn't really understand it and just let it pass, but when I was writing my graduation thesis, I wanted to research dry landscape gardens (karesansui), and I thought that laying out white sand like that might be related to Suhama, so I ended up researching Suhama. But looking back, I realized that the sea had left an impression on me in various situations, and as I investigated, I gradually understood why. So, I think he taught me a very good topic.

Horihata So, you started from the garden, then.

Hara That's right. For example, at the rock garden of Ryoan-ji Temple, you can see many people sitting on the veranda, gazing blankly at the garden without looking at anything in particular. Since I was in high school, I intuitively felt that this was somewhat similar to people gazing blankly at the sea at the seaside. When I started studying, I realized that the garden itself is a place that represents the sea, and I understood that they were connected after all. That is how I came to recognize it as I proceeded with my research.

Horihata You started from the garden, and I started from the plover, but it seems there are various entry points to the Su hama. In this book, the representation of the Su hama is scattered across various fields, not just gardens, but also waka poetry, folding screen paintings, and performing arts like Noh. Today, I would like to unravel these things with you, Mr. Hara.

■ Production process of the cover image

Hara Well then, shall we talk about the process of how this cover was created?

Horihata Every time I met you, Mr. Hara, you kept saying, "There is something I want to ask you."

Hara I didn't really say it clearly, did I? It was like, "What are you talking about!?" (laughs).

Horihata You kept saying, "But that's still a secret," and several years passed. And finally, the request I received was for the cover design of this memorable first book. I think you will be publishing many more books in the future, Mr. Hara, but you told me that you wanted to dress your first book in matohu. I thought about drawing a picture at first, but...

Hara That's right. Your masterpiece, Mr. Horihata, "Clothes of Words" (Transview) was published in 2019, wasn't it? 2019 was the time I was working most intensely on this doctoral thesis, and it was a make-or-break year. At that time, I was very encouraged by reading this, and I remember you gave me this autograph and drew the shape of a Su hama on the plover. I had this as an image in my mind.

Horihata Is that so? This looks like a failed piece of ginger (laughs).

Hara Ginger!? (laughs) You mentioned the Su hama crest earlier, but as time goes on, the Su hama becomes more and more stylized. It moves away from reality. However, it must have been created based on the beautiful seaside scenery, the experience of the real seaside. I was wondering if you could do a drawing that explores that primordial Su hama. Of course, in my mind, I would have been happy if you used matohu textiles, but I thought, "I can't say that from the beginning," so I thought I could ask for a drawing, and that's why I consulted you.

Horihata I'm not a painter, so I started to think it would be better to create a world of images rather than a painting. And so, I decided to create an image using textiles. What is used on this cover is an original matohu textile. It is a special textile made by switching between four shades of indigo-dyed thread. My partner, Makiko Sekiguchi, designed it, and it is a textile that depicts the color of indigo like ripples. I came up with the idea of drawing a picture with sand while using this as a base. So I got some white sand and tried drawing a sand painting directly, just once. The actual Su hama is also a one-time thing that is washed away by the waves, so I expressed that on the textile.

Hara The details of this textile are easiest to understand if you look at the "Su hama Theory" that everyone has, but it's an amazing mechanism where four colors of thread are tied together, right?

Horihata Yes. Four colors of indigo-dyed thread, from light to dark, are tied together 9,000 times per meter using a machine called an arrange winder. It's a special textile that can never be made by human hands. Since it's a gradation, it felt like the sea was gradually moving away from the foreground.

Hara There is also an overall gradation, isn't there? You drew a picture with sand on this and took a photo, right?

Horihata That's right. So it was a one-time thing.

Hara Since it's a sand painting, it would shift if you moved the textile even a little, and it couldn't be reproduced. When we were shooting, I had you lay out the textile at the matohu shop and draw the picture. What made me think, "Mr. Horihata, your enthusiasm is on another level!" was that when I first entered the room, these tools were already lined up like a professional craftsman (laughs).

Horihata I'm the type who likes to start with the form (laughs). I practiced many times beforehand. That's how I ended up with the best tool.

Hara Is that so (laughs)? This bottle was quite important, wasn't it?

Horihata I had to watch how much sand was coming out while I worked, and I couldn't draw well unless it was a glass bottle with a narrow opening. Otherwise, it would just pour out in a heap. This is an 18th-century French antique bottle that I treasure.

Hara That's a very prestigious tool (laughs)!

Horihata Yes. I ended up using it. Prepared for the risk of it getting scratched by the sand.

Hara Did you originally have this for flowers?

Horihata For flowers, or for serving sake, things like that.

Hara Such a precious tool!

Horihata I tried various things, but this one felt the absolute best.

Hara What left a deep impression on me was when you first showed it on the PC screen through the camera; when I saw this indigo-dyed textile through the lens, I was struck by a strange presence. It is a reality that exists there, but by passing it through the camera, it starts to look like something else.

Horihata It's a kind of 'mitate' (representation/metaphor), isn't it?

Hara It felt mystical, as if I could vaguely see an imaginary sea.

Horihata Just as I intended (laughs).

Hara And that's when you drew the sand painting. You drew it twice at that time, didn't you? Moreover, you knew in advance where the characters would go, and you drew it while looking directly at the PC.

Horihata There were five or six people around, so I was extremely nervous. Even though I said, 'Don't bring anyone,' a lot of people came.

Hara This was already a complete performance. I mentioned the Karesansui (dry landscape) garden earlier; Karesansui uses sand to represent a waterside landscape without water, and this is truly a new method of Karesansui, using textiles and white sand.

Horihata What's good about it is that you can't control the sand yourself. In other words, if you draw a picture, your own handiwork shows, but with sand, about half of it moves the way the sand wants to go. I did use a brush to smooth out the shape at the end and push away the excess sand, but it was done in a way that mixed natural randomness with my own intention.

Hara It's about not controlling or dominating too much. It's about how to create while incorporating the unpredictable.

Horihata In fact, when we create textiles, we don't try to impose our own personalities too strongly; instead, we value the fluctuations that naturally emerge from the weaving and dyeing processes.

Hara The white part right in the middle of this textile looks like a horizon, doesn't it?

Horihata Thank you.

Hara So this is what it looks like when spread out. How about it, everyone? The scale might have been a little different from what you saw in the book.

Horihata Since the book has a belly band (obi) wrapped around it, you can't see the bottom part. The foreground is the continuous sandy beach on this side, and the background is the suhama, like a fleeting island that is born and then disappears.

Hara I truly feel that you realized my request in an unexpected way. I mentioned that suhama became increasingly stylized over time, but originally, they are made of sand, aren't they? In reality, a sandy beach doesn't have such perfectly round curves; it is made of a collection of fine particles, and furthermore, it is highly dynamic because the waves are constantly washing against it. This image helps us realize such things, and it also creates a structure where this side is the 'this shore' (this world) and that side is the 'other shore' (the afterlife).

Horihata You called it a 'primordial suhama landscape,' but I didn't really understand that until I read this book.

■ Suhama on This Shore and Suhama on the Other Shore

Hara For example, a very important painting called the 'Hell and Paradise Screen' appears in this book. In this painting, the Pure Land is depicted at the top, and it is located on an island surrounded by white, winding suhama coastlines. The bottom left is hell, the bottom right is the present world, and everything in between is the sea. The foreground is hell and the present world, but there is an ideal world across the sea. As you all may have noticed, this iconography has a structure very similar to Byodo-in Temple.

Horihata The Phoenix Hall on the back of the 10-yen coin, right?

Hara At first glance, Byodo-in looks like it is connected to the land behind it, but in fact, water flows behind it, and it has a structure where the Phoenix Hall, which represents the Pure Land, stands on an independent island in the middle of a pond.

Horihata So you can't get across without a bridge. The Byodo-in Phoenix Hall was floating on an island!

Hara That was something Yorimichi Fujiwara, who built it, was very particular about.

Horihata There are white stone-like things around the Phoenix Hall...

Hara These were maintained recently, but excavations have revealed that in the Heian period, there was a suhama paved with uniform white stones collected from the Uji River, which they were very particular about. It means they had created a Pure Land surrounded by suhama.

Horihata The idea that the Pure Land is on a suhama island—I was surprised when you pointed that out.

Hara Furthermore, since it faces east, looking west from this side of the pond allows you to see the Pure Land. As it is called the "Western Pure Land," the Pure Land is a world in the west, something that exists far away in the west, so...

Horihata The sunset sinks toward that part of the building, doesn't it?

Hara That is correct. It is designed to be worshipped from this side of the pond, and it is said that a suhama (sandbar) was also created on the side from which one worships.

Horihata It looks like a gravel path now, though.

Hara It is paved now, but it is said that there used to be a suhama for worship as well. So, that aspect has a structure similar to this cover. There is a suhama of our present world in the foreground, and beyond the sea, there is an island surrounded by an ideal suhama...

Horihata In other words, does the suhama on the other side represent the afterlife? The afterlife, or perhaps the Tokoyo (eternal world)?

Hara That is right.

Horihata I drew it without thinking too much about it. Unconsciously.

Hara Things like this happen where you do them without thinking, and then various meanings come to light later on.

Horihata Byodo-in Temple has that beautiful Phoenix Hall, and there is an image of looking at the building from the opposite side of the pond, right? Considering that white stones of a suhama were once spread at its base, it means the Phoenix Hall was not meant to be entered, but to be worshipped from this side of the pond.

Hara Of course, the inside is important, but it means that this composition is highly valued.

Horihata So the composition of the Pure Land being across the sea and viewing it from this side is very important.

Hara I think it could also be seen from the Uji River in the past. I don't think you can see it from the river side now, but in the past, even people who couldn't get close to the temple could see the Pure Land there. There are records of children singing songs like "If you want to see the Pure Land, you should look at Byodo-in," so I think it had that much of an impact.

Horihata And when the sunset sinks directly into the west, if you look from the suhama in the foreground, the Byodo-in Phoenix Hall shines golden in the sunset...

Hara Yes, exactly.

Horihata That reminds me of when I went to Matsue in Shimane Prefecture the other day. There is a large lake called Lake Shinji, and there is an island called Yomegashima floating in it, and the sunset sinks right into it. It is an overwhelmingly beautiful sight, but in a sense, this is also a primal landscape of Japan.

Hara It is truly an ideal island.

Horihata This is the scenery that the ancient Izumo people saw every day. Since the Jomon people also lived there before that, I think the Jomon people must have seen this sunset as well.

Hara Is there a shrine on this Yomegashima island as well? Is it a sacred island that is worshipped?

Horihata That's right. I believe there is a water deity enshrined there now, but only pine trees grow on it. People cannot go there. Of course, you could go if you took a boat, but only birds land there. It is a pure land that humans cannot touch.

Hara So, is it a forbidden area?

Horihata Basically, it's a place where people don't just barge in.

Hara Another thing you taught me before, Mr. Horihata, is that you can see a suhama (sandbar) when you ride the monorail to Haneda Airport.

Horihata That might just be my own assumption (laughs). Everyone, please sit in a seat on the left side when you take the monorail to Haneda. As you head from Showajima to Tenkubashi, the sea opens up, and there is a crescent-shaped suhama there. The only ones there are plovers. As a Suhamer, it makes me feel like, 'I want to go there someday.' It disappears when the tide comes in, so even if I want to go, I can't.

Hara Actually, I went to check it out today. I'd heard about it from you before but hadn't been able to go. But I feel like the tide was high today. Are there stakes or something there?

Horihata Were there stakes too?

Hara There were some birds perched there.

Horihata If you look at the Google Maps photo, you can see it clearly—the crescent-shaped shadow.

Hara It seems my timing was a bit off today. While this Lake Shinji is almost too perfect, these kinds of landscapes—sacred islands—exist in many places, don't they?

Horihata The idea that the Pure Land lies where the sun sets is a Buddhist concept, isn't it?

Hara Especially in Tennoji, Osaka, since the sea used to touch the west side, people practiced 'Nissokan' (sun meditation), where they would worship the setting sun from there. They would worship the sun sinking into the west as a Buddha. This became incredibly popular in Japan, too. While Nissokan was originally just one of many ways to worship various Buddhas in Buddhist scriptures, I think the reason it became so popular in Japan is precisely because of the connection to the sea.

Horihata When the sun sets across the sea, you can't help but think there must be something where the red sunset disappears. You want to see it, but you can never go there.

Hara The feeling of being lured to some distant place must be what evokes a sense of peace.

Horihata We know that if we go in this direction, there's the Philippines, or if we go that way, there's Hawaii, but ancient people had no idea what was beyond the sea, so it might be the same feeling as us looking at the infinite universe.

*Continued in [Dialogue #2]

[Profile]

Rurihiko Hara
Born in 1988. Full-time lecturer at the Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences, Shizuoka University. Director of the general incorporated association hO. Completed his doctoral program at the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, The University of Tokyo. Ph.D. (Academic). Specializes in Japanese gardens and Noh/Kyogen. Author of 'Suhama-ron' (Sakuhinsha, 2023), 'Nihon Teien o Meguru' (Hayakawa Shinsho, 2023), co-author of 'Chusei ni Kakeru Hashi' (Shinwasha, 2020), and the 'Okina no Hon' series (Toppan Inc., 2020-22). He serves as the representative of the Garden Archive Project, which develops new archives for Japanese gardens, and released the website 'Incomplete Niwa Archives' (2021). He has also served as a dramaturg for the Noh collaboration 'LIFE-WELL' (2013) by Ryuichi Sakamoto, Mansai Nomura, and Shiro Takatani, and the Noh performance project 'Okina Project' (2020-).

Hiroyuki Horihata
Designer for the fashion brand matohu. Completed the master's program in Philosophy at the Graduate School of Letters, Doshisha University. After graduating from Bunka Fashion College and working at Comme des Garçons, he moved to the UK. Established matohu with Makiko Sekiguchi in 2005. Since then, he has presented his work at Tokyo Fashion Week and museum exhibitions. In his book 'Kotoba no Fuku: Oshare to Kizuki no Tetsugaku' (Transview), he asks deep and accessible questions about the relationship between people and clothing, and the meaning of fashion.
Brand website: https://www.matohu.com/