Weekend Shuffle: Tetsuya Chiba Interview

This is a transcript of the episode where manga artist Tetsuya Chiba appeared on the special feature segment of Rhymester Utamaru's Weekend Shuffle, which used to air on TBS Radio. Since it does not seem to be on Miyaan ZZ's site, I transcribed it myself. I have kept revisions for readability to a minimum. The focus is on the atmosphere.

October 24, 2015 23:00 TBS Radio

[Location Audio]
Utamaru Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to meet you. My name is Utamaru, and I'll be interviewing you today. I imagine my appearance might be a bit confusing...
Chiba Oh, no, no, no.
Utamaru I'm known for my sunglasses and shaved head.
Chiba I've thought about doing that myself.
Staff (Laughs)
Utamaru Thank you so much for your time today.
Chiba Thank you as well. I know you're busy.
[Program Jingle]
[Studio Live Broadcast]
Utamaru The time is just about 11:01. This is "RHYMESTER Utamaru's Weekend Shuffle," a two-hour live broadcast every Saturday night from 10:00 PM. From here on, it's our special segment, "Saturday Night Lab." As you heard from my voice at the beginning—the voice of a man who was incredibly, blatantly nervous—tonight is a special project for Special Week. We will be bringing you an interview with a master of the modern manga world... no, a god, Tetsuya Chiba-sensei, right up until just before 12:00.
This interview was recorded last Thursday at Chiba Tetsuya Production. There is a part we cut from the recording—an episode that was also depicted in the live-action "Bakuman." movie we discussed earlier in "Movie Watchmen," which Hitoshi One also drew in his work "Tomogaki," about how Chiba-sensei met the folks at Tokiwa-so in his youth. Since talking about that would be a spoiler for "Bakuman.," we cut that part of the conversation with Chiba-sensei. So, you'll be hearing a packed 50-minute interview with Tetsuya Chiba-sensei, with only one commercial break in the middle. Here we go!!
[Location Audio]
Utamaru Well, I don't think he needs much of an introduction, but let me introduce our guest today, Tetsuya Chiba-sensei.
Chiba Good evening. I'm Tetsuya Chiba.
Utamaru Thank you for being here.
Chiba Thank you for having me.
Utamaru The reason I really wanted to talk to you at this time is because I was deeply moved by Sansanchi Kawa-sensei's "Ashita no Joe ni Akogarete"... which depicts Kawa-sensei's time as an assistant at Chiba Pro. I've been thinking for a long time about why I've been so drawn to your work since I was a boy, and I was moved to find that it was backed up by the technical aspects of the creator's side.
Chiba Is that so?
Utamaru Yes. First of all, how did you feel about this work, where your own work's origins and technical aspects are analyzed in such detail from the perspective of someone so close to you?
Chiba Well, it was a long time ago, nearly 40 or 50 years, so I had forgotten quite a bit, but the buildings and such are still there. I'm surprised he remembers so well...
Utamaru Exactly, this one here...
Chiba It's really realistic, and he captured the atmosphere of that time so well. I thought it was very well done.
Utamaru And this technical theory, too. Of course, I thought I understood how manga was drawn in my head, but I was surprised all over again to learn that it was built on such a accumulation of detailed ingenuity.
Chiba Is that so? ...Is it drawn in that much detail? (Laughs) It's a bit embarrassing for me. Because I'm drawn looking so cool (Laughs).
Utamaru In this work, "Ashita no Joe ni Akogarete," Sansanchi Kawa-sensei uses as an opening hook that a major feature of your work is that the background doesn't shrink toward the center in terms of perspective, but rather has almost no vertical perspective. To do that with a photo, you'd have to take it from a very high place, which is difficult, but he uses that as an opening hook to say that this is an expression unique to manga. I felt like I had finally found the backing for the flavor I feel when I read Chiba manga as a reader. It's not just that the focus is on the protagonists... the supporting characters in the background, other people... or even props and buildings, all have an equal sense of presence. I've felt that since I was a child. It's completely different from other manga.
Chiba Is that so? No, I've never really been conscious of that. But, for example, there are scenes like a two-page spread. There, for example, a tenement house... when many people are playing or doing sports at a sports day... well, yes, each person... the protagonist is of course in the middle, but the others around them... and their families, their relatives... I imagine there are many. I did enjoy drawing those people too.
Utamaru You enjoy drawing them?
Chiba I do. Oh, this person's grandfather is here... or this person's grandchild is being bullied... things like that. It has nothing to do with the story, but I enjoyed drawing those things in the mob scenes. The editors were really troubled by it, though. I was often told, "Why do you spend time on things like that?"
Utamaru Naturally, that takes more effort to draw.
Chiba It takes time, too. I remember being told, "It's not about those things, only the protagonist is important."
Utamaru Even so, you still felt it was important...
Chiba Rather than important, it's just fun to draw (Laughs).
Utamaru Naturally, that takes up pages, and the story progresses slowly.
Chiba That's right. The story development slows down. The editors seemed quite frustrated by that.
Utamaru Instead of being told by the editor, "Oh, I see, I should do it this way," you prioritized your own "But this is fun"... that...
Chiba No, I understood what the editors were saying well. So I would think, "That's true," and try to fix it, but my eyes... everything would scatter, or rather, I would focus on various places.
Utamaru But as a fan, I have to say, that is truly the heart of Chiba's work...
Chiba Is that so? That makes me very happy. I enjoyed it... but it was a lot of work... so the fact that someone enjoyed it in a way... I'm very glad I drew it now. Thank you very much.
Utamaru Not at all, it's my pleasure. ...The faces of each of those people, the little things they say, that's fun, but also... it's not like the world only exists for the protagonist. It feels like these people aren't there just for the author's convenience... I really feel that. I think that might be something like your ethics, Chiba-sensei. What do you think?
Chiba ...It's more of a sense than an ethic. Well, I suppose it is an ethic. For example, Joe gets attention and is surrounded by newspaper reporters, right? Then, while drawing the reporters, I think, "Is this person a newlywed?" (Laughs) "Is this person not doing well at work and getting yelled at by their boss?" I end up thinking about that while drawing. Each one of them. So, in a way, maybe... I've worried that it might be hard to read because the focus isn't just on Joe. Because the eyes go to various places, you see.
Utamaru Strangely enough, it's easy to read as manga.
Chiba Is that so?
Utamaru At least on the first read, my eyes don't wander. Is there any trick to that?
Chiba Eyes wandering, you say. While drawing everything in detail... it's strange to say, but I think manga shouldn't make the reader wander. So, when it comes to direction, or when dividing panels... and when deciding on the composition, I use a lot of nerves there. Especially panel division. And yet, when I draw the pictures, I end up drawing to the edges. Manga isn't something you read, but something where you look at one page and let your eyes run in an S-shape. The gaze passes through smoothly. While passing through, you feel something in the corner of your eye... and yet the story development is understood. So, being easy to read, not making the reader wander, being easy to understand... and yet conveying the atmosphere is quite difficult... I think that's the most difficult part of manga. So, in that regard... not just me, but everyone who draws manga... I think they all struggle with how to make it easy for the reader to read, easy to understand, and yet naturally enter the world.
Utamaru That's the hardest part to balance...
Chiba It is difficult.
Utamaru Also, you used Joe as an example earlier. When Joe is being interviewed by reporters, you become interested in the reporters around him. That's exactly the fairness, or the airiness, of Chiba's work where the story doesn't just serve the protagonist. It leads to the feeling that "I can also commit to this world." For example, Joe is like that, and Teppei from "Ore wa Teppei," and especially Matsutaro Sakaguchi from "Notari Matsutaro"... in short, as humans, they are selfish, violent, and sometimes... Teppei can be stingy... in short, when the protagonist is someone who is by no means praiseworthy, if you make it with a structure that only focuses on the protagonist, the reader might end up holding a grudge. I thought that by including many objective viewpoints, you were creating an airiness that says, "There are men like this too."
Chiba Well, I'm not calculating that. It's something I do unconsciously. For example, you mentioned Teppei and Matsutaro... they are very... annoying to be around, aren't they?
Utamaru No, they are a nuisance. I definitely don't want them around. Like Matsutaro.
Chiba Even his family. They would even ask Matsutaro, "I want you to die." Even his parents would say, "This child is really a nuisance"... a nuisance to the neighborhood, a person who is a nuisance just by being alive. I made him a character... I intended it to be a short story. I thought, "It would be troublesome if a guy like this existed, but there are guys you can't hate." Also, it's quite the opposite of my personality, or rather, if I were to live my life again, I would have liked to live like this, I have a longing for it. In Teppei or Matsutaro. I was quite timid and a shut-in. I cared about people's... surrounding eyes. I cared about what people said. Because I was the eldest son, I was often scolded by my parents. "You're the big brother, so be a role model." I had that kind of life ingrained in me... I lived that kind of life. So, I wanted to take off the shackles once. Do as I please. I wanted to draw a life where, if there were a lot of people, I would say, "Get out of the way," even if it was just for a day or two.
Utamaru I think your "Harris no Kaze" was quite a pioneer in setting up a wild protagonist in boys' manga.
Chiba That's right, too.
Utamaru Weren't you worried that a wild protagonist... especially when it comes to Matsutaro and Teppei... would be hard to empathize with, or would cause resentment?
Chiba No, the editors were worried about that first. When I said, "This is the kind of character he is." When I said I wanted to draw a guy who eats early, doesn't do homework, fights... lives as he pleases, the editors were worried. "The readers won't empathize with him."
Utamaru Like Kunimatsu. He keeps changing what he does, too.
Chiba Especially with Kunimatsu. So, it was a weekly magazine, so after a month or two, usually... popularity polls... they do them every time. If it wasn't very popular, we'd stop. But I really wanted to do it. Because... what should I say, the boys' manga protagonists I drew before, like "Chikai no Makyu" or "Shidenkai no Taka," were very good children, honor students, filial, honest, and cared about their friends. They had no flaws anywhere. But when I draw such people, I think, "Oh, this kind of person is good," but while drawing, it's not very fun.
Utamaru At the time, that was relatively standard.
Chiba That's right. That's what a protagonist was decided to be. Cool and all. But rather than that, drawing a person who does stupid things on the side, pulls the protagonist's leg, or does things that are troublesome... maybe it overlaps with myself, but it's fun to draw.
Utamaru It's more fun that way, after all.
Chiba It is fun. I wanted to draw a fun guy as a protagonist, so I started with Kunimatsu in the first "Harris no Kaze."
Utamaru Then the readers think it's fun too, right?
Chiba That's right. Maybe it was because it was a character that hadn't existed before. The reaction seemed quite good.
Utamaru Also, as you mentioned earlier, the story's detours, the scene's detours... even if the story is stopped, the readers are enjoying it. I don't think anyone is reading it thinking it's boring.
Chiba Is that so?
Utamaru Also, this is my biased hypothesis as a fan, but with Teppei, Matsutaro... and Kunimatsu too, as a sense of balance that doesn't cause resentment, the perspective of the supporting characters, or rather... in Matsutaro, there's Tanaka, or in the early stages, Shimada-sensei takes great care of Matsutaro, right? "Since such a good person keeps taking care of him, he shouldn't be a bad guy." ...Teppei also has a guardian-like presence that appears each time. I felt that there was an advantage that the world isn't just the protagonist. Did you think about that sense of balance?
Chiba That's right. You have to place a neutral person next to a guy who does things that are off the path without concern. Otherwise, it doesn't emphasize how terrible this guy is. In Matsutaro's case, Tanaka, and in Kunimatsu's case, his younger brother Abo, or Megane, or a girl named Ocharra... there's an honor student girl, and placing someone who is always nervous on the side... when I'm drawing, it becomes strange if such a person isn't there... maybe I balanced it there. I didn't calculate it much, though.
Utamaru Does your personality just come out as it is?
Chiba No. Is it personality?
Utamaru Joe, too, if the children in the Doya-gai hadn't met Danpei... I'd like to ask about that name later, but for example, the protagonist of "Gaki"... his face looks just like Joe's, and in the sense of a boy who is wandering without a home... I saw the protagonist of "Gaki" as "Joe who didn't meet Danpei and the people of the Doya-gai." In short, it looked like he would have been ruined if he didn't have the supporting characters.
Chiba I see... that's the first time I've heard that, but it's very fresh.
Utamaru Is that so!! No, the face looks just like Joe's, so I thought he was drawn as another Joe.
Chiba No, that's... all manga artists are like that, the faces are decided (Laughs). I can't draw that many different types. I think it just became the same. Drawing "Gaki" or drawing Joe... the era was still dragging the war... the postwar period. It's only been about 20 years, right? Then, in my memory, I had the consciousness that we were at war until just recently. And soldiers with one arm or one leg. There were many in town. They would get on the train and play the accordion or something. ...There was always a shadow of the war like that.
Utamaru Like war orphans?
Chiba There were many war orphans when I went to Ueno Station. I was a repatriate, so I came back from China, but at that time, when I passed through Ueno Station, children my age were already covered in mud... they had no parents. No parents, no siblings. Children who had lost their families were all black there... they probably hadn't taken a bath for days and days. I guess they hadn't eaten either, children like that were shining shoes. I remember that very strongly. I wonder if that's the influence. Now that I think about it. Drawing Joe or drawing "Gaki." I feel like those characters are drawing those children.
Utamaru You were just talking about your experience of being repatriated from Manchuria, but in the work "Ieji" (Note: "Ieji 1945-2003" included in "Manga-ka-tachi no Senso: Hikiage no Higeki"), which depicts the repatriation experience itself, I was overwhelmed by the weight and terribleness of the facts, or what actually happened, but when I read "Ieji 1945-2003," I thought, "Ah, this is indeed Chiba manga," because at the end, Chiba-sensei remembers that time, has his wife... is it your wife?... bring hardtack, and you tear up while eating it... if you've watched the story up to that point, you naturally understand the weight of those tears, but here, Chiba-sensei includes the perspective of your wife as someone who doesn't share that experience... in other words, from a third-party perspective, she says, "What a strange person." You include that perspective. Or in "Notari Matsutaro," too, when Tanaka says he's going to get a job at a glass factory in Akita, and Matsutaro follows him... I really think it's my favorite scene in the history of Japanese manga, or in the history of all creative works... in short, Tanaka says he's quitting sumo and going to get a job... Matsutaro wants to stop him, so he follows him and harasses him, but then Matsutaro says, "Let's go back to the room together," that egoist says, "Let's go back together." And Tanaka kneels down... the two of them go back to the room... the most important moment for their lives... yet, the end of that story is the bald-headed president of the glass factory saying, "I haven't even decided to hire him yet... what a strange person." After all, the third-party perspective. What should I call this, even in places that are incredibly heavy or moving... there are people who have nothing to do with the protagonists' story living here too. I think this perspective is the real thrill of Chiba-sensei's work.
Chiba No, no, I don't re-read what I've drawn. It's half behind the mist, so I have no memory, but I remember that scene. At the glass factory... yes. I drew that while thinking, "I'm glad they went back to the sumo stable."
Utamaru Is it unconscious that you include the third-party perspective, or the feeling that others are living there too, as they please?
Chiba That's right. ...What should I say, they are living in my head. Also, this story, Teppei is the same, but around that time, weekly magazines became busy, so my youngest... I have four brothers, but my youngest brother... he read a lot of books, so I asked him to give me hints.
Utamaru Taro Nanami.
Chiba Yes, yes, Taro Nanami is writing the original work. I would say to him, "Think about what happens next," while I was drawing other works, and I would ask for hints. His...
Utamaru Perspective.
Chiba That's right.
Utamaru In "Notari"... Tanaka was also from a sketch Chiba-sensei made, and Nanami-sensei...
Chiba Yes. I said, "Isn't this guy interesting?" There is a model for that. There was an actual...
Utamaru A person with a face like that (Laughs).
Chiba Yes, really. A person with a strange face. He had just entered, and his hair was messy because he couldn't even tie a topknot, but it seems he had a cold at that time. He had snot coming out. Green snot (Laughs). And he was shivering while holding salt. I thought he had an interesting face... I... he was... what stable was it... when I went to the stable for research, I sketched all the interesting sumo wrestlers. He was one of them.
Utamaru But, the work "Notari Matsutaro," with or without Tanaka...
Chiba That's right (Laughs).
Utamaru Exactly, thinking about it that way, when you start a story, Chiba-sensei... as I said earlier, "the story doesn't just serve the protagonist"... how much of the story do you think about before you start?
Chiba Well, in the case of "Matsutaro," I really intended it to be a short story, and I just went for it... I intended for "the strange guy" to end in three or four episodes. I ended up entering the world of sumo halfway through, but I wasn't thinking about that at all at first.
Utamaru Tanaka wasn't planned either...
Chiba Not at all. Not at all.
Utamaru Then, the glass factory incident I mentioned earlier... in short, it's a story that wouldn't exist without Tanaka... or rather, most incidents wouldn't happen without Tanaka (Laughs)... it's usually an incident he causes while drinking, so that means it wasn't thought out until then.
Chiba It wasn't. And there is that way of making it, and for example, in the golf manga I drew after that...
Utamaru "Ashita Tenki ni Naare."
Chiba When I thought, "Where is the place golfers long for the most?" there are many now, but in the past, it was called "The Open." The birthplace of golf is England... the UK. And it's a small town in the north, but there's an old "Old Course," just an "old course." And that is what you might call...
Utamaru A "holy land," or...
Chiba A place called a "holy land." So, I kept in mind that the protagonist would play in the final group there at the end... playing in the final group means competing for the championship.
Utamaru That landing is, for the time being.
Chiba Yes. It's like seeing Mt. Fuji far away in the distance... But I don't know how to get there (Laughs).
Utamaru Until you get there... after all, that... detours.
Chiba Yes, detours, or rather, you get lost.
Utamaru That, after all, for a reader. As a big plan for Chiba manga... as I said about the pictures, the story detours or stagnates... of course, it's exciting when they are winning matches. But the time in between, I... it's like a suspended time, or a moratorium time. If it's "Matsutaro," it's between places. Or you have a day off somewhere you went, so what should I do. If it's "Teppei," there's a story of just one day when he's waiting for the acceptance notice when he's re-taking the exam for Todaiji Gakuen, right? (Laughs) That episode, I read it and I was so happy, so happy. That's it.
Chiba That's right (Laughs). What was I doing?
Utamaru Scribbling various things, doing various things, and finally having nothing to do. There's a picture of Teppei's helper, or rather, his grandfather, watching him warmly. Just looking at that makes me feel so happy that I could cry. It's like, I can think that this moment in life is the happiest...
Chiba I see. I'll try re-reading it (Laughs).
Utamaru I think I've read it more (Laughs). But, I think that's a unique flavor. However, as I said earlier, the glass factory part of "Notari" is also like that, but I think it unexpectedly plays an important role in later developments. For example, in Joe... Noriko, who later marries Mammoth Nishi, and Joe suddenly thinks of going on a date... just for a day off. And that... as you've talked about in various places, the idea that it leads to the final episode was the editor's idea. But Joe says something very important there. Or, this isn't about the story, but the panels where important things happen are small.
Chiba For example, when Joe burns out to pure white, the editor in charge said, "Shouldn't you re-read this issue once?" I don't re-read... I don't re-read, but he said, "Please read this at least," and gave me one episode where he goes on a date with Noriko. Indeed. It's a small panel where he burns out to pure white.
Utamaru That's right, and with that impressive hand. It feels like it's floating in white.
Chiba But I didn't think I was saying anything that important at that time, myself.
Utamaru Is that so?
Chiba I think things like that happen every day, surely.
Utamaru Every day.
Chiba Every day. It's quite an important thing, but I spend it lightly, and when I think about it later, "Oh, that was the time... he said one big word that changed my life," I think that happens often.
Utamaru That's exactly, probably... even if you aren't conscious of it, Chiba-san... what I feel from the work is that the characters... including us... in short, people's lives are greater than the story. That's why I think I learned from Chiba's work that the most important things actually happen in moments that are nothing.
Chiba Is that so?
Utamaru That's also exactly, even if you aren't conscious of it, important things... the fact that it suddenly comes out in that scene where he says, "I have a day off, so let's go on a date," is probably because they are really alive.
Chiba I learned a lot from hearing that from you, Utamaru-san, too. Oh, I see, that kind of...
Utamaru I'm sorry!! Really!! What am I saying. To a god. To a creator. What am I saying. But, at the same time, as a very worldly question, don't you have trouble as a story manga? Like not being able to end it.
Chiba That happened too. I've struggled a lot with how to end it. But, various ways of making stories, I talked about it a little earlier, but it's a story of seeing Mt. Fuji far away, seeing the goal, and stumbling to get there. Usually, when the characters are decided... when I decide I want to draw this guy, after that, it's like writing his diary, every day. I don't know what he's going to do tomorrow (Laughs). I have a vague expectation that he will do something like this, but there's no decider... so I don't know what will happen tomorrow. Depending on who he meets, his personality might change completely. I wonder if I was drawing while enjoying things like that.
Utamaru Then, once it starts moving, it's relatively short-term... thinking about the story of that episode...
Chiba Yes. Every time, I think about it thoroughly. The episode at that time.
Utamaru "Notari" is a representative of manga that can't end, isn't it?
Chiba (Laughs) Is that so? ...That's a story about that kind of character. Sumo is said to be heart, technique, and body, but he has neither heart nor technique. He only has a body. So, there's no way he can succeed as a sumo wrestler. Especially since the world of sumo is full of guys with big bodies like that. So, well, when he becomes a Juryo... when he becomes a Juryo, he's called a "Sekitori," he can tie a topknot... I decided to end it there, so I changed the policy halfway through. Sometimes, the editor, thinking I was done, when I drew "The End" and handed it over saying, "This is the end," it would say "To be continued" (Laughs).
Utamaru That's the "to be continued" on its own that I hear about in urban legends... it exists.
Chiba That really... it was done to me twice or so. So it still hasn't ended.
Utamaru As long as their lives continue... life, at least, continues until you die.
Chiba I suppose so. I also sometimes suddenly think, "What is Matsutaro doing now?" "What is Tanaka doing?" or "Is Grandpa Nishio alive?"
Utamaru Isn't Grandpa Nishio living a bit too long? (Laughs)
Chiba No, but.
Utamaru He's unexpectedly young. That person.
Chiba That's right. He's younger than he looks.
Utamaru Matsutaro, who came with only his body in heart, technique, and body... I really want to know what happens when a person like him really starts to feel the decline of his body.
Chiba I'd like to see that a little too (Laughs).
Utamaru Someday... a one-shot or something is fine, just one... as a wish from a fan.
Chiba Thank you.
Utamaru Also, as you said earlier, not deciding the goal too much, or aiming for a distant Mt. Fuji, and letting the characters move as they please, actually feels like it fits the characteristics of a weekly manga magazine, or a serial.
Chiba That's right.
Utamaru And at the same time, in the detours I mentioned earlier, for example, because there is weight in various places in the background, other than the protagonist, Chiba-sensei's manga can be read over and over, and you stop at a certain panel and just look at the supporting characters... I think that's a joy that is only allowed in manga. Not just me, but a critic named Mikio Kato wrote a famous critique called "Time of Love" (Note: "Hyosho to Hihyo: Eiga, Animation, Manga")... he cites "Notari Matsutaro" as an example, saying "Returning as you like, playing with the panels as you like," that time of love is a sense of time unique to manga. So, I feel that Chiba-sensei's manga is the most manga-like manga.
Chiba That makes me happy.
[CM]
Utamaru Your brothers' names come up, but the unconscious Chiba work... for example, the part where the time stagnates is interesting, or the moratorium time is interesting... this is a biased view of a fan, but it's also depicted in the work "Yaneura no Ehon-kaki," the period when you were hidden by the Xu family... a wonderful, kind Chinese family... during the repatriation from Manchuria... the period when you were in the attic is the origin of you as a manga artist... that is exactly a suspended season, a time when you had nothing to do, that period was nurturing the richest time... as a fan's perspective, what do you think?
Chiba The war ended, and the repatriation experience, I... it's almost a year. The end of the war is August 15th, right? ...of Showa 20. From then on, I couldn't return to Japan for a year. So I was running around and hiding here and there in China... almost a year. I was able to return on a ship around July 20th of the following year. During that time, I didn't go to school. ...Not only did I not go to school, I couldn't take a bath, there was nothing to eat, and during one winter... in just one year, about 240,000 people died, not from war, but from hunger, cold, and despair. Because I was in that, I saw hell nearby and such. By chance, my father was taken as a soldier, but because he was weak, he didn't go to Siberia. So we were able to return together. One way or another, we were able to meet and return together. So, that one year feels like we were on a family trip.
Utamaru That kind of, a kind of happiness.
Chiba Yes. When I think about it later, yes.
Utamaru Heh.
Chiba And, because I didn't go to school, my parents... my mother especially worried, "Tetsuya, you should learn kanji. If you can return to Japan... I don't know if we can return, but if you can return, you'll be with your classmates... it will be troublesome if you can't write or can't do multiplication." So she kept teaching me. Also, my father was at a printing company, so there was paper that they would throw away called "yare-gami"... "torn paper"... he had paper, so we had paper and writing utensils, so I drew pictures and wrote characters there... I studied and drew pictures. When I remember that, I really feel like we were on a family trip the whole time... of course, I was always hungry. I was hungry and it was painful. It was cold, so it was really strict, but my heart was very rich. There was a period when I was hidden in the attic at that time.
Utamaru How long was that period?
Chiba I don't think it was that long in terms of time. I think it was about two or three weeks. There was a time when we got separated from the group. It's dangerous when you get separated. Japanese people are hated. You don't know what will be done to you. So you have to be in a group. Even when acting in a group, it was dangerous, but when it became just the family... it was a bit dangerous. But at that time, by chance, my father's colleague, and a close friend... a person named Xu hid us. That was two or three weeks... I don't think it was a month.
Utamaru It's relatively short. It's a work, so I thought it was a longer period.
Chiba In my memory, it's quite long, but when I think about it, I think it's less than a month.
Utamaru But was it an impressive period?
Chiba That's right. In that attic... it was cold, but... my mother read books to me with all her might, and told me made-up stories with all her might. But she ran out (Laughs). So this time she told me, "You should draw pictures for them." My younger brothers were small. I was the eldest son, six years old. The ones below were four, two... and then one who was born a few months ago. And they would cry immediately. They wanted to go outside.
Utamaru That's right.
Chiba Because we were in a small place. So, for my younger brothers... well, I didn't know manga in the past, so I was just drawing pictures. But when I explained the pictures, my younger brothers would get excited. Their eyes would shine. "Where is this person going?" or "Where is this horse going?" they would ask. Then I would think hard... I would think hard about what would happen... it's like making a story. I would talk while making it. So, I think that was the origin for me to become a manga artist later... I didn't notice it at that time, but I think it was a very important time now.
Utamaru Exactly, the atmosphere of that place, and the order of having characters and making stories to please them, I felt it matched after hearing your story. At the same time, the intense hunger of the repatriation experience, and of course, death... how is it, were you still... you were young, so was it not the fear of death or something like that?
Chiba No, rather than fear, I thought, "Ah, humans die easily." A child I was playing with until yesterday was not breathing the next day. Cold. A child who was so energetic was dead. A grandfather who was encouraging everyone and leading them was cold. I was... ingrained, or rather, that humans die easily at that time. So, my characters die easily. That's my sense. Humans... are tough. While saying that, there were many children like me who didn't eat for days, but some survived and returned to Japan, and I saw people who were so energetic die suddenly. There was also the reality that I returned by crossing over many people who died. So, the one year of various repatriation experiences... I feel that many things were ingrained in my human formation.
Utamaru It's very impressive that it sometimes shows its face in your work. I was reading "Ashita no Joe" when I was still very small. For example, the episode where Kim Yong-bi loses his parents in the Korean War... the episode where he kills his parents because of hunger. That abnormal vividness, when I wonder what it was, you actually experienced something close to it.
Chiba I suddenly noticed that while drawing. Only that one. Ah, I'm drawing my own experience.
Utamaru That hunger... vivid hunger... and killing people for it... it was persistent... it was a shock when I read it. I think I received a good shock. Also, even in "Ore wa Teppei," in the final stages, Teppei returns to being a wild child... returns to the same land where he was looking for treasure with his father... in the development where he is trapped in a cave with young people, "Ore wa Teppei" had progressed as a relatively cheerful kendo manga until then, but there is a development where the fear that that parent and child might commit cannibalism arises, right?
Chiba Ah, that was it. I forgot too. I drew that. A little. I drew a dangerous story (Laughs).
Utamaru With this, I... of course, I don't think such a thing will be drawn, but at the same time, Teppei and his father might do that (Laughs).
Chiba They might. That's right. I was drawing while thinking that too.
Utamaru So, I knew about your various repatriation experience stories... so I was surprised that you included this here too. The fear of hunger, or...
Chiba No, no, I try to avoid the hunger during repatriation, or seeing hell... manga is, after all, fun, interesting, and makes you feel energetic after reading, that's the basic of manga. So I try not to draw such painful stories in manga, and I don't want to remember it myself. I remember the fun time in the attic, but such painful... suffering from hunger, seeing many corpses, seeing the faces of people dying, I tried to sink it somewhere in my memory as much as possible, but when I draw, it comes out. So in Kim Yong-bi's case, I thought I was drawing my own experience halfway through, but in "Gaki" or the last scene of "Teppei," I wasn't conscious of it at all.
Utamaru "Gaki," when I think about the magazine it was published in, "Bokura Magazine" is a magazine for young children, right?
Chiba It was a magazine for young children (Laughs).
Utamaru A little, this is no good for a magazine for young children (Laughs).
Chiba That's right. So, I intend to always think about the magazine's readers, but sometimes I forget, and I wonder if I forget what age group is reading this.
Utamaru "Gaki" is the most gruesome in your work...
Chiba That's right. That's a story to draw in an adult magazine.
Utamaru It's quite shocking even in an adult magazine. No, but I think it's a wonderful work. ...Do you have a desire to convey to the readers, even if you don't make the whole manga that tone, that humans have the possibility of that if you peel off one thin layer of skin?
Chiba That exists. Humans, really, sometimes... what is it... such a gentle-looking person is hungry. And when it comes to protecting their own family, they become a demon... I've seen that several times... suddenly... there are various elements. Bad parts, demonic elements, angelic parts, god-like elements, everyone has them. But how that person lives... depending on the environment, they become like a god, or a demon, or a demon, that happens often. So... now, talking to Utamaru-san, I realized that I might have been drawing while wanting to draw such things.
Utamaru Exactly, in your work, characters in one direction never appear, do they? Completely good people don't appear, and completely unpleasant people don't appear... I really think so. ...The experience you said you didn't want to remember, you drew in the work "Ieji"... was that a big decision?
Chiba That was, from a little before that... I have quite a few friends, fellow repatriates. Kenji Morita, Kenichi Kitami... Fujio Akatsuka was also one. There are manga artists, but I was called by people like that to leave our memories... it's hard to draw in manga, but we held exhibitions in the form of picture books. Gradually, gradually, we were at war... it's the edge of the war, but I started to feel that people who had such experiences have a duty to draw and leave it for everyone. Everyone started drawing each one. I also started to not suppress my memories from around there, while I'm still energetic, there was such an era, if we don't repeat it twice... while talking about how humans can avoid repeating it, a sense of duty came out.
Utamaru In that sense, the work "Ieji" is a work from over ten years ago, but I think the air of Japan is even more dangerous now that it's 70 years after the war. How do you feel about the current times from your perspective?
Chiba I feel very anxious. Is it okay to go in that direction? Wouldn't it be better not to go in that direction? Japan has a better direction. Everyone has already started to recognize it as a country that doesn't go to war, right? Japan has a constitution, so that country absolutely cannot go to war. Instead... instead of going to war, making bridges in various places, digging wells, making medicine for people in trouble... you did a very good job with the Nobel Prize recently. I wish it would become a country respected by people all over the world by doing such things. Do you want to be a country that is feared? A little more... economy, economy, you say, but it's fine to be modest, that country is loved by everyone, it's a good country. I wish it would become a country that is said, "Don't destroy that country." That might be difficult. It's becoming like that now, so it's a waste, I feel a little bit that it was about to go in a good direction.
Utamaru I learned that from Chiba-sensei's work. In short, various ways of living... various strengths, various beauties, I learned from Chiba-sensei's work that you should allow that. A society that allows various lives, or a way of looking at things is richer. Of course, the horror of war is like that. ...I'm sorry. I've gone way over time. I was able to ask everything I wanted to ask. ...I think I'll be in a state of no memory after this is over.
Staff (Laughs)
Utamaru I spent a wonderful time that cannot be expressed in words like gratitude, thank you very much.
Chiba I also had many things that I noticed. I want to pull my own work out of the bookshelf and re-read it. Thank you very much.
Utamaru Thank you very much as well.
Chiba Thank you very much.