[Podcast Transcript] Interview with Kenji Yamauchi (Playwright/Director) and Wakano Jojima (Producer) on Theater and 'Shiroyagi no Kai' (5 parts total) 5. Shiroyagi no Kai's Performances, Theaters, and the Future

[Podcast Transcript] Interview with Kenji Yamauchi (Playwright/Director) and Wakano Jojima (Producer) on Theater and 'Shiroyagi no Kai' (5 parts total)
5. Shiroyagi no Kai's Performances, Theaters, and the Future

[Yamashita] Also, after this, you are running this Shiroyagi no Kai in parallel with the mystery tour mentioned earlier, and also actor management?

[Jojima] That's right. For actor management, we have a company we have a business partnership with, so they help us with that. When we reached our 10th anniversary of founding the company, a work called 'Ipin Kosen'...

[Yamashita] I saw it, I saw it.

[Jojima] Everyone praised this highly. It was an ensemble play written by Mr. Yamauchi, with a huge number of people—I've forgotten the exact number.

[Yamashita] It was a participating work in the Shimokitazawa Theater Festival.

[Jojima] Yes. It was truly interesting.

I've always been thinking about whether I could somehow edit together the footage that was just shot for archival purposes. The way it was filmed makes me wonder if it could even become something watchable as a single piece. But even so, it's such a good work that I want to edit it together and preserve it as a record.

That's why there are times when I think he should write more ensemble plays like this with many people. But he says that 6 or 7 people are easier to write for.

[Yamashita] Is that so?

[Yamauchi] That's, you know, like a theater troupe, not a project-based thing. Like having everyone appear.

[Jojima] Like, even if it's just a little bit, right.

[Yamauchi] Right, right. It's actually easier to write when there's something like that.

Like when they only appear in the very last scene...

[Jojima] Or when they don't appear at all.

[Yamauchi] Or they don't appear. I think that's interesting. It's quite difficult to do that in a produced performance like this where we make offers from our side.

[Yamashita] I see.

[Jojima] Also, in 2013, Yamauchi-san directed a viewer-participation mystery drama for the CS channel AXN Mystery. When I told him, 'We're doing this project,' he doesn't remember it, but when I said, 'There's this story,' Yamauchi-san said, 'Oh, I'll direct it.' I was like, 'Are you kidding? Are you really sure?' That happened once.

Not only did Yamauchi-san direct it then, but I learned so much as a creator.

[Yamashita] What did you learn?

[Jojima] When you try to explain a single event, it tends to get overly elaborate and heavy, but he dared to trim it down. It's easy to say in words, but the fact that he pointed that out was...

[Yamashita] You mean trimming things away?

[Jojima] How to trim things away is, of course, linked to the story, the mystery, and the tricks, so I can't say it's one-size-fits-all. But when he said that, I realized or discovered that there is a quiet, theatrical spirit within Yamauchi-san, and it was a huge learning experience.

The reason we are popular now is because our current format is properly established as theater. In the past, Ryo Iwamatsu wrote for us, and along the way, I met mystery novelist Yukito Ayatsuji, who was very kind to us, and we received advice from Mr. Yamauchi. We decided to make it proper theater worth watching, not just an event. Saying 'worth watching' might be rude to others, but I felt that no matter how fun the game was, we had to do the theater properly.

[Yamashita] So, it's about getting the basics right, isn't it?

[Jojima] Truly, back then, when you directed for us in 2013. You helped us adapt the script, which had been written by a young writer, very carefully, page by page. You would say, 'Let's have a script meeting today,' and we would gather once a week, several times, to discuss things like, 'It should be like this, right?'

I learned a lot through that process, and the style of mystery theater we create now was heavily influenced by that time.

[Yamashita] So, 2013 was the catalyst, a turning point.

[Jojima] That's right. This is my first time expressing my gratitude and making this confession (laughs).

[Yamashita] Is that available as a package or something?

[Jojima] It's not yet. It's a bit early, or rather, since it's a trend now, I think it would be a great project to rebroadcast it or put it on a subscription service.

[Yamashita] That would be great, through streaming or something.

[Jojima] That's how it happened. How should I put it? Not quite an older brother, but like an older cousin.

[Yamashita] An older cousin.

[Jojima] (Laughing) Like a cousin I see every once in a while.

[Yamashita] I also feel like he's a cousin of mine. I don't know why, though. Maybe it's because I can sort of see his family members in my head.

[Jojima] Everyone knows them, after all.

[Yamashita] That's right, that might be part of it.

So, regarding your company or your work, Jojima-san, are you planning to continue in this same way from here on out?

[Jojima] Well, I remember when it was one of Shiroyagi no Kai's anniversaries, Yamauchi-san told me, "Jojima-san, you should write a comment for the pamphlet since it's an anniversary." I have to write quite a bit more now, but I used to write things occasionally when there was an opportunity like that. I wrote it back then, but when Yamauchi-san decided that the first one or two times weren't just a trial and that he would continue, I told him—as I mentioned earlier—that while I am a professional at events, I am not a professional at theater production, so I thought it might be better to leave it to an expert so that Yamauchi's theater could grow even more. When I brought that up, he said, "Nah, Jojima-san is fine."

(Yamashita's laughter)

He didn't say "I want Jojima-san," he said "Jojima-san is fine." So I accepted that, and I've been working with him ever since.

[Yamashita] I didn't know that happened.

[Jojima] It's true. I'm not sure if he remembers it himself, but I did write it in the pamphlet.

[Yamauchi] Back then, I think I was still hoping that attendance might grow.

[Jojima] Exactly. That's why I suggested that if we hired a producer who knew more about theater promotion, Yamauchi-san's world of theater might expand, but he just said, "Jojima-san is fine!"

[Yamauchi] It's true that if there were a producer like that, there could have been a path where we called in more famous celebrity-type cast members and performed at places like Honda Gekijo, but... hmm. That's right.

[Jojima] That might have been possible.

[Yamauchi] It might have been possible, yes. But well, what would that have been like? I don't know. I don't know if we could have kept it going.

[Yamashita] That's true, keeping it going is something that's really...

[Yamauchi] As I said earlier, you can't write about people you don't know, in the end.

Hmm, it's quite... I wonder if it wouldn't be difficult.

As I said earlier, I only just realized it recently, but the number of people who come to see Shiroyagi no Kai is about 1,500 or 2,000, that's about it.

Among them, there are quite a few people who just don't like it from the start.

[Yamashita] By people who don't like it, do you mean people who don't really like it?

[Jojima] Shiroyagi's works?

[Yamauchi] Exactly.

[Yamashita] But everyone has things they like and dislike about a work, right? Conversely, I think there are also people who love it passionately.

[Yamauchi] Just a small segment. So that's, well, really just a small segment.

[Jojima] I don't think that's necessarily true.

[Yamashita] It's not just a small segment.

[Yamauchi] It really is just a small segment, but that's fine.

I've come to understand that.

[Yamashita] I see.

[Yamauchi] It's quite... There's something about, you know, expanding it, or rather... the power to capture a mass audience.

[Yamashita] Is that what it is?

[Yamauchi] Regardless of whether people like it or not, there is something there.

[Yamashita] I wonder if there is.

[Yamauchi] I think there is.

[Yamashita] Conversely, there might be disadvantages to that as well.

[Yamauchi] Disadvantages, hmm...

[Yamashita] Now that I've reached this age, I've started to think that it might be happier to keep things going on a small scale for a long time. Looking back at myself when I was busy, there are times when I think, 'Was I even human back then?' I'll say it now that I'm this age. I feel like I'm lucky to be able to do what I love like this, and I hope I can keep doing it on a small scale for a long time.

[Jojima] For me, regarding Shiroyagi no Kai, I think it's better that it's a slow burn. I didn't know if it would become popular and then decline, or what would happen, until we actually tried it. I've also tried not to make the mystery events I run too trendy.

[Yamashita] But now, the times have made it that way.

[Jojima] The times have made it that way. It's become a bit of a problem. When something becomes a huge hit, it starts to feel a bit dated, doesn't it?

[Yamashita] Once it hits a peak, yeah.

[Jojima] Exactly. I don't like that. I wanted to keep it at a temperature where it's just always there. Theater and mystery are genres that have been passed down through the ages, so I wanted them to be things that are always present, but now they've become trendy.

So, perhaps if Shiroyagi no Kai had become a huge hit, it might have peaked early, and I don't know where it would be now. I like this slow-burn feeling.

Also, there's a sense of superiority in knowing about Shiroyagi no Kai. Like the audience members saying, 'You don't know Shiroyagi no Kai?'—that kind of sense of superiority.

[Tani] I joined after being taught by Mr. Yamashita.

[Yamashita] Into Shiroyagi no Kai, right. That's right.

[Jojima] I think that slow, steady growth is good. But, we've reached a point where 2,000 to 2,500 people are coming, slowly but surely. From here, if we hover around 3,000, and if Mr. Yamauchi is okay with it, I feel like continuing in this way would be the ultimate happiness for those who love it.

[Yamashita] That's true.

[Yamauchi] You know, I have a feeling it's going to gradually go down from here.

[Jojima] Is that so?

[Yamauchi] I thought so this time. Like, this might be the limit.

[Jojima] But as you mentioned earlier, Mr. Yamauchi, is it the cast?

I don't mean that the current cast is unknown, but rather the idea of doing what you want with the people you like.

[Yamauchi] Takashi Okabe has become famous, so in a way, that's the opposite.

[Jojima] Well, even so, just because people see Iwaya-kun and Okabe-kun on TV, they might not necessarily think to go see their theater work (laughs).

[Yamauchi] There might have been some who did.

[Jojima] There might be some, that's true, I suppose.

[Yamashita] I was watching those two every week in the drama 'Kyoen NG' (Co-starring NG), though.

[Yamauchi] That was because Hitoshi One came to see the play.

[Yamashita] Oh, so that's why.

[Yamauchi] That's right.

[Yamashita] Since One-san was the director, that explains it.

I see. So that's how it works, after all.

[Yamauchi] There are a lot of people from the industry at Shiroyagi no Kai.

[Yamashita] Oh, I see. So there are a lot of industry people.

[Yamauchi] There are a lot of people from the industry.

[Jojima] When people appear in your plays, Yamauchi-san, surprisingly after that...

[Yamauchi] The industry, I mean, commercials, television, and the video industry.

[Jojima] Like Marika Matsumoto-chan, for example.

[Yamashita] That's right, Matsumoto-san has become quite major.

[Yamauchi] Someone like that, no way. It's impossible for them to go any further!

[Yamashita] Is that because it's a relatively eccentric performance? Or maybe not?

[Yamauchi] I actually want to keep pushing them in a bad direction.

[Yamashita] But that's what you want to do, isn't it, Yamauchi-san?

[Yamauchi] You know, back in the day, it wasn't like that... I mean, 'Budo to Mikkai' (Secret Meeting with Grapes) wasn't like that at all, right? In the early days, it wasn't like that at all.

[Yamashita] That's true, certainly.

[Yamauchi] There's a part of me that did it because I love small theaters. Like how to make the most of Mr. Fukaura. It's changing more and more, it really is changing, the small theater scene.

[Yamashita] Well, that's true, the playwright's style changes too.

[Yamauchi] The current situation, the trend in the theater world, is relatively serious, very much so.

[Yamashita] That's right, there are more plays depicting social issues and such.

[Yamauchi] It's quite serious, and how should I put it. Because of the times we live in, there's naturally a desire for hope at the end, or to feel reassured, or to be saved. But it's different from something that's very educational, or useful, or makes you feel like 'today was good.' It's more like, 'Why was I made to watch this?' 'Why do I have to see Iwatani completely naked?' That's how it ends up.

(Yamashita's laughter)

[Yamauchi] That's how it ends up. And when that happens, the audience gradually drifts away.

[Yamashita] But conversely, when I become a major act and start selling out, tickets become hard to get, right? Then I stop trying to force myself to get them. I just think, 'That's not for me, I'll just go to the ones I can easily attend.' Ticket prices are also getting higher and higher, so you can't go to Cocoon every week, right? Maybe 30,000 yen a month? In that case, I'd rather see ten 3,000-yen shows than three 10,000-yen shows, because I like to see a lot. That's a very real feeling for me as a fan.

That's why I always only get B-seats at the New National Theatre, for example. I do things like that. Being able to see a lot of shows really puts my mind at ease. Theater has that benefit, so I'm honestly fine with you continuing at that scale.

How about you, Yamauchi-san? Do you have any plans for what you want to do next?

Are you doing another performance next year?

[Jojima] We aim for one a year. For now, everything is decided through 2023.

[Yamashita] Oh! That's wonderful. Two years ahead, then.

I don't think you're constantly thinking about what to do next year or the year after, Yamauchi-san, but is it more like you figure it out as the performance approaches? Are you just watching actors until then?

[Yamauchi] That's right, the cast, you know, above all else.

[Yamashita] So you're a casting person.

[Yamauchi] Yes, I am a casting person. So I'm constantly, every day...

[Yamashita] Checking?

[Yamauchi] Yeah, checking. I've been checking out cast members all this week too. Going to see plays every day.

[Tani] Is that so?

[Yamashita] That's nice.

[Yamauchi] Because when it comes to checking out cast members, it inevitably ends up being at small theaters.

[Yamashita] That's true, isn't it.

[Yamauchi] I mean, even if you go to a large theater like the Cocoon, everyone who appears

is already a famous person. Maybe a minor role for someone unknown.

[Yamashita] That's right, they're only in it for a little bit, even though they're good actors.

[Yamauchi] They're only in it for a little bit, so you can't tell at all.

That's why I inevitably go to see small theaters.

[Tani] I actually sat next to you at a theater once, Yamauchi-san.

[Yamauchi] Is that so?

[Tani] At Atelier Shunpusha. Oh, it was around March of this year, I think.

[Yamashita] Kotake-mukaihara.

[Yamauchi] That's why Seinen-dan left, right?

[Tani] To Toyooka, yes. (*Toyooka City, Hyogo Prefecture)

[Yamauchi] Yeah, it's painful, losing Agora and Shunpusha. If Seinen-dan stops using them, well... actually, there are quite a few small theaters... let's see. The Honda Group really has a lot, doesn't it? The TOPS is also part of the Honda Group.

[Yamashita] TOPS became part of the Honda Group, didn't it?

[Jojima] I'm really happy that TOPS has been revived, honestly.

[Yamashita] I'm really happy too. Is there any chance of doing a Shiroyagi no Kai performance at TOPS next time?

[Jojima] Well...

[Yamashita] It's a "well"? Why?

[Jojima] Well, I wonder... something...

[Yamashita] It's close from here, so it's easy to get to.

[Tani] Is the price also high, after all?

[Jojima] I haven't checked since it became the new Tops, so I don't know.

[Tani] But the other day, Mr. Watanuki mentioned that between Suzunari and Ekimae Gekijo, Ekimae Gekijo is more expensive.

[Jojima] Oh, is that so?

[Tani] Apparently it's because it's closer to the station.

[Yamauchi] It doesn't change much... yeah, it's about the same...

[Yamashita] Is the capacity larger at Suzunari?

[Tani] Yeah, it might be a little larger.

[Yamauchi] The capacity doesn't change that much either.

[Yamashita] We don't really understand the money side of things. Other than ticket prices, we have no idea.

[Jojima] Suzunari is also a good venue and easy to see from.

[Yamashita] Suzunari is incredibly good.

[Tani] I went there yesterday, too.

[Jojima] Don't you feel like the style of Shiroyagi no Kai and the style of Suzunari don't quite match? That's just my personal impression, though; once we actually do it, it fits perfectly.

[Yamashita] Have you done it only once in the past?

[Yamauchi] We've done it several times.

[Yamashita] No, wait. 'Umeru Onna' (The Woman Who Buries) was also there.

[Jojima] That's right. About three times, 'Troisgros' was also there. I think we've done it three times.

[Yamashita] 'Troisgros' at Suzunari left a huge impression on me.

[Jojima] The set design was wonderful, wasn't it?

[Yamashita] Yeah, both the set and the story were interesting.

[Yamauchi] But if we fill Suzunari to capacity, how many people was it again? Does it get close to 200?

[Jojima] It exceeds 200.

[Yamashita] It exceeds 200?

[Jojima] Well, there are fire safety laws and various other things.

[Yamauchi] That's difficult. Getting up to that number... 200 is tough, after all.

[Jojima] It's easy to see from there, though, since the rake is well-designed.

[Yamauchi] That's right, the rake is quite steep.

[Yamashita] It has a good rake, so it's easy to see.

[Yamauchi] That's true. But it really is a bit tough.

Doing over a dozen stages at Suzunari...

[Yamashita] Is that what it is? Over that way?

[Yamauchi] Yes, exactly.

[Jojima] That's right. I think the capacity was probably around 150 or in the high 100s.

[Yamashita] Mr. Yamauchi, your plays have a quiet tone, don't they? Since you don't project your voice very loudly, it's difficult unless it's a venue of a certain size, right?

[Yamauchi] I believe up to the 6th row is the limit.

[Yamashita] (Laughing) Really? I think it can be heard much further back than that.

[Yamauchi] No, I think the 6th row is the limit.

[Yamashita] I listened from the second to last row in Mitaka, and I could hear it just fine.

[Jojima] In Mitaka, we put in a lot of effort, suppressing sound echoes and covering the entire back wall with black curtains.

[Yamauchi] It used to be terrible, honestly.

[Yamashita] Is that so? I heard you perfectly well the other day, even though your voice was super quiet.

[Jojima] That's thanks to Mr. Morimoto's efforts, isn't it?

[Jojima] We flatten everything out, and the stage is temporary too. It's easy to see, easy to hear, the dressing rooms are spacious, and it's a wonderful venue.

[Yamashita] The dressing rooms are spacious? I see, I guess that's what you'd expect from a public theater.

[Yamauchi] I went to Fushi Kaden the other day, and that was only 6 rows too.

[Tani] Was it really that small? Fushi Kaden is already...

[Yamashita] But the voices were relatively loud in 'Doubt: A Parable' at Fushi Kaden, so...

[Tani] Mr. Nasu's voice was perfectly fine even from the back.

[Yamashita] 'Doubt' was interesting, wasn't it?

[Yamauchi] I'm not sure if you'd call it directing acting, but that's the biggest thing. I don't think it's just for Shiroyagi no Kai, though. Basically, I have them perform the same way they would for film, as if there were a shotgun microphone right here...

[Yamashita] Like having a lavalier microphone clipped right here, very close by.

[Yamauchi] Right, I tell them to perform that way.

[Yamashita] Because even if you mumble, it can still be heard.

[Yamauchi] Exactly. So it's different. I think that's a major difference.

However, there are some truly talented actors who can perform in a large theater as if they were acting for the screen.

[Yamashita] That's amazing.

[Yamauchi] It really is. They don't exaggerate at all, yet their voices carry. People like Kyoko Kishida and Mr. Hashizume are like that. It's a very rare type.

[Yamashita] In that case, conversely, since I imagine you are looking for actors and watching various performances, if you find people like that, might you consider trying to perform in a slightly larger venue?

[Yamauchi] Not at all.

[Yamashita] I don't think so (laughs). Well, that's true, isn't it.

I was talking about rakugo the other day, and rakugo performers say that when they perform in small spaces, their voices carry well enough, but when they perform in large venues, they really have to change their approach.

[Yamauchi] But in large venues, they usually have microphones for rakugo, don't they?

[Yamashita] They do, but everyone says it's a completely different thing. I see what they mean. Conversely, theater almost never uses microphones. Though, I've seen them used quite a bit lately.

[Yamauchi] They use them quite a bit in large venues.

[Yamashita] They do, don't they? So, you can't really say for sure.

But I wonder if Shiroyagi no Kai, or your stage productions, Mr. Yamauchi, are effective even without projecting such loud voices...

Thank you so much for everything today. Unless there's anything else you'd like to add, I'd like to end by asking you a question, Mr. Yamauchi.

[Yamauchi] Yeah, go ahead.

[Yamashita] Mr. Yamauchi, I believe you will continue to do theater for a long time. You are older than me, and you've passed your 60th birthday. I also think about how little time I have left in my life and wonder how I should live it...

[Yamauchi] For me, things have become quite clear. As I've said time and time again, I think I've reached a limit in terms of audience numbers for my theater work. The films I make are about the same scale as well.

[Yamashita] What do you mean by about the same?

[Yamauchi] It's about 2,000 people, at most.

[Yamashita] In terms of attendance? For a movie?

[Yamauchi] Yes, exactly. I want to keep creating things aimed at that kind of target audience.

[Yamashita] Please keep creating.

[Yamauchi] After all, there are many good actors out there.

[Yamashita] There might be new encounters as well, right?

[Yamauchi] Yes, exactly. I want to discover those people, bring out their charm, and continue doing theater and film. That's the feeling.

[Yamashita] What is the secret to finding good actors, thinking, 'This person looks interesting'? Is it just a matter of going to see a lot of performances?

[Yamauchi] It's intuition; you can tell just by looking at them for a bit. I can really tell right away. Like, 'I like this person.' Of course, their appearance is part of it, too.

[Yamashita] The way things look, the way people talk, and their voices too, right?

[Yamauchi] Of course. That's why I think we have to keep going—or rather, I think that's all there is to it.

[Yamashita] But I'm truly happy that you'll keep going. As long as we have life, we want to keep watching.

I hope you, Jojima-san, will continue to support them and keep up the good work.

[Jojima] Thank you very much.

[Yamashita] I held this gathering thinking of it as a once-in-a-lifetime encounter, so thank you very much.

[Yamauchi] A once-in-a-lifetime encounter indeed!

(Laughter from Yamashita and Tani)

[Yamashita] With that, thank you very much, Yamauchi-san and Jojima-san.

[Yamauchi] Thank you very much.

[Jojima] Thank you very much.

[Yamashita] Thank you, Tani-san. Thank you for your hard work.

Transcript by Blind Writers
(http://blindwriters.co.jp/ )

Transcriber: Yumiko Ito

Thank you very much for your request.

While transcribing this, I looked up small theaters and was surprised to find that there are so many of them just within Tokyo. I had an image of theaters as places that only connoisseurs visit, but I realized that was only because I was unaware of anything other than famous, large theaters.

After hearing this discussion, once I learn about the appeal of small theater productions, I feel like I want to say things like, "You don't know Shiroyagi no Kai?"

I look forward to working with you again.